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+--- Tema: Regulacija ogrevanja - sistem Buderus (/showthread.php?tid=8784)
- blautherm - 17.10.2007
Čujte nobena regulacija ne draga ne poceni ne deluje tako, kot bi morala če nimate hidravlično uravnoteženega sistema.
Pa še to, vremensko vodena regulacija brez sobne enote (termostata) delujo popolnoma zadovoljivo, če je le zgoraj omenjeni pogoj izpolnjen. Regulacija s termostatskimi ventili je pa bolj bukova zadeva, tudi originalno TRV-ji niso mišljeni za dnevno regulacijo temperature, ampak samo za reguliranje pribitkov toplote (sonce, pečica, ....).
LP
- kpz - 17.10.2007
Ne izklaplja črpalke pri dnevnem režimu (razen ko greje sanitarno vodo) in ne uporablja mešalnega ventila pri enem ogrevalnem krogu .
Po vsem tem bi bilo najboljše imeti regulator v najhladnejši sobi?Povsod drugje pa termostatske ventile.
- ceroki - 17.10.2007
Samojed: Ni mešalnega ventila. Je direktno ogrevanje, poganjano z črpalko. Dejansko se temperatura na radijatorjih spreminja v odvisnosti od temperature kotla.
Po noči, ob znižanem ogrevanju pa se po 3 minutah črpalka izklopi. To je v sokladno z navodili.
BTU (sobna enota) vpliva na končno temperaturo kotla vendar skoraj nič ne vpiva na temperaturo dnevne sobe. Tudi, kako naj vpliva, sej nima vzvoda?
- Samojed - 17.10.2007
Ne bom pametoval, vendar mi je vseeno nekaj čudno. Koliko je lahko najnižja temperatura kotla? Banalen primer - zunaj 15 stopinj, notri prijetnih 22, ker segreva sonce skozi okno, črpalka menda ves čas laufa. Če je temperatura kotla vsaj 23 stopinj ali več, se bo prostor dogreval in pregreval. Tu bi moral ustavit črpalko.
- kpz - 17.10.2007
Pa saj zaradi tega je problem.Ne ustavi pumpe glede na notranjo temperaturo.Ustavi se šele pod pogojem,da je zunanja temperatura višja od X.
- ceroki - 17.10.2007
kpz: tako je! NE ustavi pumpe!
Po svoje pa razumem, sej če bi pumpo ustavil potem bi se verjetno v ostalih (severnih) prostorih ohlajalo in nimaš več nadzora nad temperaturo.
Z ničemer ne more vplivati na nadaljnje segrevanje referenčnega prostora vsaj dokler se peč ne ohladi. Potem pa spet lovi minimalno temperaturo v kotlu zaradi ostalih prostorov. Ta minimalna temp v kotlu pa je odvisna od zunanje in malo korigirana z BFU enoto.
Po moje je koncept pri tako opevanem Buderusu malo zgrešen.
- kpz - 18.10.2007
blautherm-
Koliko je razlike med ročnim uravnoteženjem sistema in TRV zapiranjem radiatorjev?
Npr.;Sistem je uravnotežen.Termostat ali regulator je ponavadi v dnevni sobi ,ki je ponavadi na južni strani hiše.TRV pa naj bi bil odprt do konca v tej sobi.Zaradi zunanjih vplivov se temperatura sobe dvigne,termostat ali regulator ustavi-zmanjša temperaturo v kotlu.Ostali prostori zvisijo.
In zopet rabim en kontra argument na˝Po vsem tem bi bilo najboljše imeti regulator v najhladnejši sobi?Povsod drugje pa termostatske ventile.˝Ali zakaj je potrebo imeti TRV v sobi z regulatorjem odprt!?
Kdo kaj ve,menda ne izumljamo tople vode!?Kako imajo rešeno drugi znani proizvajalci z podobno opremo?
- blautherm - 18.10.2007
KPZ Napisal:Koliko je razlike med ročnim uravnoteženjem sistema in TRV zapiranjem radiatorjev?Tole pa ne razumem najbolj, kaj je ročno uravnoteženje sistema?
KPZ Napisal:Npr.;Sistem je uravnotežen.Termostat ali regulator je ponavadi v dnevni sobi ,ki je ponavadi na južni strani hiše.TRV pa naj bi bil odprt do konca v tej sobi.Zaradi zunanjih vplivov se temperatura sobe dvigne,termostat ali regulator ustavi-zmanjša temperaturo v kotlu.Ostali prostori zvisijo.Tole je nepravilna lokacija termostata, če imaš tako, kot si opisal ga moraš prestavit na tako mesto, da bo na notranji steni, da ne bo na direktnem soncu oziroma da se ne bo soba preveč pregrevala zaradi sonca in še, da ne bo na prepihu.
LP
- ceroki - 18.10.2007
Malo sem pobrskal na <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.buderus.com">www.buderus.com</a><!-- w -->.
Tukaj je nekaj vprašanj in uradnih Buderusovih odgovorov. Več na zgoraj omenjenem linku. Vsaj support je dober.
sasha1952
2 posts
Joined
10/22/2006
The boiler starts even room temp satisfied
Posted: 22 Oct 06 8:19 PM
I just have installed GA124 Boiler with Logamatic R2107 and Room Sensor.
I setup the day temperature 69 and run the boiler in winter mode
On the day time when room temp is grater then 69 the boiler shuts down
and circulator run continuously. This is fine. The boiler temp starts to
follow down and around 100 deg the boiler turn on again even the room temp grater then 69 deg. Because circulator is still running the room temp goes up
and now is lot more then 69. Is it something wrong with my settings ?
And another question: what is the rison to run circulator all day long
even room temp satisfied. Any ideas. Thanks
jkennard
763 posts
Joined
10/31/2004
Re: The boiler starts even room temp satisfied
Posted: 24 Oct 06 1:53 PM
If the Buderus Room Sensor is being used, that area is called a constant circulation zone. The circulator runs almost all the time and slight temperature adjustments are made to the water to increase or decrease the room temperature. This type of zone control is ideal for radiant systems where recovery might be slow because of low system design temperatures or large mass systems where it would take more energy to bring the entire system back up to temperature than "maintaining" a temperature. If the zone with the Room Sensor is over heating it could be just a couple of programming adjustments. It is suggested to contact us or have the installing contractor contact us from in front of the control and we can assist with programming.
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bobreilly
2 posts
Joined
9/25/2006
Room sensor lets room ramp up to uncomfortable level
Posted: 13 Oct 06 11:19 PM
So, I have a logamatic with room sensor hooked up. According to Buderus, this is a constant running zone. It works with the heat curve.. ie at 50 deg 77 deg water. Problem is that when the boiler ramps up to make domestic hot water and is staisfied. the heat is transferred right back into the house. Is it me or is this a design flaw? what is the purpose of the temp setting on the room sensor when it will not even look at that and ramp the room up to an uncomfortable 77 deg. I want to rip the room sensor out and go to conventional tstat. Anyone else experience this?
jkennard
763 posts
Joined
10/31/2004
Re: Room sensor lets room ramp up to uncomfortable level
Posted: 16 Oct 06 12:25 PM
The R2107 usually shuts down the burner before the domstic temperature is reached and allows the circulator to purge some heat out of the boiler. The addidtion heat that is in the boiler should not effect the room temperature to the degree you mentioned. It is suggested to check the program settings for the "Room Sensor" to be sure they are set correctly. Or if there is a mixing valve, is it operating correctly. If there are any questions please contact us at 1-800-283-3787 and we can help check the settings.
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dmwaters
5 posts
Joined
12/11/2005
Slow Temperature Change Response Time
Posted: 12 Dec 05 11:52 AM
Hope this is the right forum section. One week ago we installed a G115/4 (with Riello 40/F3 oil burner), a Logamatic 2107 contoller, an LT 160 DHW tank, connected to a First Co. dual heat & A/C air handler set up for two hot air zones (1st & 2nd floors). System replaces a York hot air furnace with central A/C.
So far the system seems to work fine except for a seemingly slow response time for increased house heat calls. For example, thermostat set for 65 or 67 F at night and set to increase heat starting at 5:00 AM. The heat increases very slowly such that the room temperatures on either floor are not at 70 until at least 7 AM; two hours to go up 3 to 5 degrees seems very slow. The same goes for heat calls at other times of day, say late afternoon.
The installer will be back within a few days to “fine tune” the system, but we're wondering if this slow response is normal or if you might have some advice or suggestions to speed up the temperature changes or to ask the installer about. Thanks for any help.
jkennard
763 posts
Joined
10/31/2004
Re: Slow Temperature Change Response Time
Posted: 12 Dec 05 12:59 PM
Based on your description it sounds like the heating curve may need minor adjustment. It is suggested to have the technician contact us if he has any questions about making these adjustments. Our technical support department is available Monday thru Friday, 8am to 5pm eastern time. Thanks,
dmwaters
5 posts
Joined
12/11/2005
Re: Slow Temperature Change Response Time
Posted: 12 Dec 05 2:13 PM
Thanks for your quick response. I forgot to mention, I have DHW set at 130 F. Would I be better off setting it at 140 and using a tempering valve to get the DHW from the faucets at a lower 120-125? I don't think it was installed with a tempering valve and I don't want anyone to get scalded.
jkennard
763 posts
Joined
10/31/2004
Re: Slow Temperature Change Response Time
Posted: 13 Dec 05 8:37 AM
Use of a tempering valve is a personal choice. It does not effect the R2107. Added fuel cost can occur to maintain higher domestic hot water temperatures.
TimBrown
22 posts
Joined
11/2/2004
Re: Slow Temperature Change Response Time
Posted: 13 Dec 05 6:32 PM
I had the same problem with a very similar system. If you raise the heating curve some, and possibly increase some other values, it will fix it. These things are standardized on tight houses with very tight users. They respond slowly on default, but they have huge reserves. In a jam, just switch the control front panel to “emergency” and let it run all the way up - it will cook the place right up.
Also, take the trouble to read the installation (not users)manual, unlesss your installer absconded with it. If you have any technical aptitude at all, you will get through it. My installer was clueless and the oil company much worse. You've picked an esoteric piece of equipment with great potential. You have to self educate, or they will not fix it for you.
If the installer took the manual, download it from this site.
TimBrown
22 posts
Joined
11/2/2004
Re: Slow Temperature Change Response Time
Posted: 13 Dec 05 6:32 PM
I had the same problem with a very similar system. If you raise the heating curve some, and possibly increase some other values, it will fix it. These things are standardized on tight houses with very tight users. They respond slowly on default, but they have huge reserves. In a jam, just switch the control front panel to “emergency” and let it run all the way up - it will cook the place right up.
Also, take the trouble to read the installation (not users)manual, unlesss your installer absconded with it. If you have any technical aptitude at all, you will get through it. My installer was clueless and the oil company much worse. You've picked an esoteric piece of equipment with great potential. You have to self educate, or they will not fix it for you.
If the installer took the manual, download it from this site.
rmenon
8 posts
Joined
5/15/2005
Re: Slow Temperature Change Response Time
Posted: 13 Dec 05 9:03 PM
I've used a different strategy that may help. I have GA124-17 with a 2107 and room sensor as well as outdoor sensor. The boiler runs in a continuous circulation mode with a Lifebreath airhandler. The airhandler has a pump in it, but I've rewired the pump to run off the circulator control of the 2107. So this is how it works in a 4400 sq. ft. ICF house that is about 60% more efficient than the R2000 spec. The air handler runs on its low speed all the time. The room sensor controls the setbacks and takes care of the huge solar gain we get during the day. The Reftemp is 112 and offset is 0. However, the airhandler is also attached to a thermostat which runs coincident with the setbacks on the room sensor/2107. When the thermostat calls for heat, it closes a dry contact relay in the airhandler as the ECM blower goes to a higher speed. This dry contact relay is connected to the R-W contacts on the Honeywell aquastat in the boiler. So basically, the low speed on the fan with these boiler parameters can keep the house warm at steady state at any outside temp. In the morning when the 2107 goes to day mode, the thermostat also calls for heat and the boiler fires to its max temp with the fan on high and the house heats up nice and fast. Actually, with the airhandler fan on high, the boiler can never get past 151 F as the airhandler can dump a lot of heat into the ducts and this is the steady state temp it can reach with all 59,000 BTU. When the thermostat is satisfied, the fan goes back to low and the room sensor does its job keeping the day or night temps as set. This is the automatic equivalent of the emergency switch idea floated above and it works like a 2-stage system basically. And it works flawlessly. Fast recovery from setbacks and "cruise control" operation the rest of the time.
jkennard
763 posts
Joined
10/31/2004
Re: Slow Temperature Change Response Time
Posted: 14 Dec 05 11:02 AM
Your installation is unique and sounds like it works well. The combinations of controls and wiring would not be found in a typical installation.
When placing the R2107 in the manual mode, the domestic hot water will heat up to the setting on the black dial as well. It is suggested to adjust the programming. Please have the technician or you contact us from the site and we can assist.
dmwaters
5 posts
Joined
12/11/2005
Re: Slow Temperature Change Response Time
Posted: 14 Dec 05 11:33 AM
Thanks for the help and responses. I live in northern CT and as the outside temp was pretty cold last night... 14 at midnight, dropping to -1 F at 6 AM), I may need to make some more adjustments. I have the 2107 installation manual and I'm fairly mechanical, so I shall read it closely. Point well taken about this being a system that takes some learning. Now I'm beginning to think the slow heat response time may not be the only item that needs adjustment.
At 11 PM, one of two teenage daughters took about a 30 min. shower and the water DHW in the LT160 dropped from 134 to 52 F (well water temp); boiler temp was running up to 176. I know the G115 had been filling house heat demands, but at other times I've noticed that two 10-15 minute showers in fairly close order will pretty much deplete DHW, even when the outside temp was in the 30's. The tech who installed the system has twin teenage daughters and says he has virtually never run out of DHW with the identical system, even when they seem to live in the shower. I read the LT160's “continuous 2nd hour rating” (whatever that is & how about the first hour) is 124 GPH at 93K BTU/Hr (seems to be pretty much the entire heat output of the G115/28 - ?). I know I'll have to shorten the kids' shower times, but is the LT160 big enough with the proper adjustments or do I need to consider having a second DHW storage tank hooked up to the LT160 or have the unit swapped out for for a bigger one?
The installer has been so busy with new installs and service calls from burner outages due to the cold that I may not see him again for a few days. Thanks for any advice re the DHW.
kb1igk
10 posts
Joined
12/26/2005
Re: Slow Temperature Change Response Time
Posted: 27 Dec 05 12:47 PM
your lt 160 should handle it providing that it's piped in 1 inch pipe
i have the g115 with 2107 and lt160 and i can take shower after shower all day and never run out
also I'm in Connecticut also what did are you using as a ref-temp on your 2107 and whats the offset
thanks
Re: Slow Temperature Change Response Time
Posted: 27 Dec 05 3:05 PM
First, NOTE, if it's late and the thing has flipped to night setting, there will be no new hot water at all until morning. Night setting time can be changed to later or earlier on the homeowner menu.
I've got an additional strategy, which is to run the tank a bit hotter (140, say) and tell your daughters to start with much less hot water. If you turn the hot all the way up and then add enough cold to balance it you empyy the tank very quickly, and way less hot is required, when balanced by less cold, of course, to have a poefectly good, hot shower. 30 minutes a full blast hot plus enough cold to cool all that hot down enough to get under it will empty any tank pretty quickly. The dishwasher also likes very hot water, uit of course there is a scald risk.The 2107 is set up to give priority to hot water, full blast, so it turnes off the house ciirculators for as long as the tank calls for heat, and cranks the boiler way up.
kb1igk, when you say 1 inch pipe, you mean for the coil, not the feed and out lines, don't you?
Re: Slow Temperature Change Response Time
Posted: 27 Dec 05 3:34 PM
yes Tim pipe the tank from the manifold to the coil in 1 inch i use a taco 007 with 1 inch to the tank no problems
but i also do what Tim says and turn the hot on just a 1/4 turn then the cold and i can take a show all day and never run out :-)
good luck
- kpz - 18.10.2007
Tudi jaz ne vem kaj pomeni hidravlično uravnoteženje sistema ročno ali nožno.Znabiti da se uravnava pretok do posameznih radiatorjev zaradi različnih dolžin cevi?
Glede pozicije regulatorja-ga nimam na soncu niti prepihu,je pa v dnevni sobi.Če je možno se hiše gradijo tako,da so dnevni prostori v poziciji proti jugu inštalater pa povleče kabel za termostat v dnevno sobo da je pri roki.
Smo potem prišli do tega da se regulator postavi v ˝hladno˝ sobo?
Na tem Buderus.com suportu pa niso izjavili nič o nastavitvah.Opisujejo samo delovanje.
- Samojed - 18.10.2007
Če mene kdo vpraša (saj vem da me ne, sicer pa še niti oken nimam, kaj šele peči), bi zadevo uredil takole. Tale regulator naj dela kar pač dela, ker zadeva ni slaba - to da znižuje temperaturo peči po potrebi. Ampak kljub temu, ker imate težave, bi jaz lepo montiral en navaden programski termostat, ki npr pri 20 stopinjah vklopi črpalko, pri 21 pa izklopi. Voda bo krožila po potrebi, temperatura peči bo spet po potrebi oz. kot bo narekoval regulator in mirna bosna.
Seveda potem pride v poštev varianta, da v sobi z termostatom odprete ventile, v drugih sobah pa ali termostatske ali pa "ročno uravnotežite sistem" s pripiranjem, da ujamete ravnotežje v vseh prostorih.
Ker doma imamo kombinirano peč, ki dela samo on/of z temperaturo okoli 70 stopinj, v dnevni termosta, ki vklaplja črpalko in zadeva špila bp že več let.
- Jani - 18.10.2007
Predvsem je treba vedeti, da mešanje oziroma hkratno kombiniranje različnih regulacij ni smiselno oziroma je celo škodljivo. Obstajajo tudi primeri, ko je takšna regulacija uporabna - vendar to v splošnem nikakor ne velja. Buderusova osnovna regulacija (modra škatla na vrhu peči) regulira ogrevanje glede na zunanjo temperaturo. Senzor mora biti pravilno postavljen (višina, pozicija na hiši...), v sami regulaciji pa je potrebno določiti posebno konstanto. To konstanto lahko spreminjaš samo v "inštalaciskem načinu" - potrebno je z zobotrebcem pritisniti skriti gumbek...). To konstanto je izredno težko izračunati, z metodo "uzaludnih pokušaja" pa traja njeno nastavljanje po pravici povedano vsaj dve leti (ne pretiravam).
Zato Buderus ponuja tudi notranji senzor oziroma termostat. Njegova uporabnost je vprašljiva. Jaz sem se mu gladko odpovedal... Njegova največja prednost oziroma korist je v primeru ogrevanja podhlajenega stanovanja. Če je temperatura v prostoru za vsaj 3 stopinje nižja od nastavljne, potem začne sistem ogrevati z vso močjo. V primeru ko je notranja temperatura blizu referenčne, takrat senzor nima praktično nobenega vpliva na regulacijo.
Priporočam uporabo zunanjega tipala in termostatskih ventilov na radiatorjih. Notranji senzor pa samo v primeru, da velikokrat ogrevate podhlajeno hišo - torej v primeru, da hiša ni stalno naseljena.
Hujše komplikacije (regulacija vsake sobe posebej...) pridejo v poštev samo, če se gremo "inteligentne inštalacije", če je lastnik računalniški frik ali ima preveč denarja.
- kpz - 18.10.2007
To se strinjam,da je brezveze mešat regulacije.
To krivuljo niti ni težko nastavit.To se pravi pri tej in tej zunanji temperaturi je temperatura kotla taka in taka.Štelaš pa lahko nagib in pomik cele krivulje.Sliši se komplicirano pa ni.
Kje si to dobil?¨Njegova največja prednost oziroma korist je v primeru ogrevanja podhlajenega stanovanja. Če je temperatura v prostoru za vsaj 3 stopinje nižja od nastavljne, potem začne sistem ogrevati z vso močjo.˝
Če imaš to 2107 regulacijo povej kako imaš nastavljene parametre.Lahko na PM.
- Samojed - 18.10.2007
Da je brezveze mešat regulacije se tudi jaz strinjam. To je bilo mišljeno, če zadeva ne bo spelala kot bi morala. Tudi tisti odgovori z neta so tako tako - očitno imajo vsi podobne probleme.
- Jani - 18.10.2007
Kje si to dobil?¨Njegova največja prednost oziroma korist je v primeru ogrevanja podhlajenega stanovanja. Če je temperatura v prostoru za vsaj 3 stopinje nižja od nastavljne, potem začne sistem ogrevati z vso močjo.˝
To sem prebral v navodilih za uporabo, ki so bila zraven peči, ki greje staro hišo. Funkcijo je potrebno posebej vklopiti. To finto sem študiral letos, ko sem kupoval peč za novo hišo. Na koncu tistega sobnega termostata nisem kupil, čeprav je stal samo 80 €, kar je malo v primerjavi s celotno kurilnico. Ampak kakšne hude koristi pa ni od njega.